Jason Dana Costa 0:00

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Worth the Work with Jason Dana Costa. And today's guest is Danny Kimlinger, who is the CEO and partner of Minds and Associates, where they bring together psychology, behavioral health, business strategy, and create high-performing organizations. For over two decades, Danny has built a career around people, purpose, and creating organizations that thrive. I'm so excited, Danny. Welcome.

Dani Kimlinger 0:23

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Jason Dana Costa 0:24

Excellent. So exciting to have you here. You're out in Colorado. Here I am in Rhode Island. It's amazing what technology can do to bring people together. So here at Worth the Work, I like to connect your family of origin and sort of how you were raised and how it's sort of translated into your leadership. From what I can see, you've been with Minds for a long time and have now achieved being the CEO. So I'd love to know how you were raised and something that was early in your life that taught you how to take care of people, because clearly that's what Minds is doing.

Dani Kimlinger 0:53

I love this question because it's an origin story question for me. It helped me, frankly, become who I am professionally today. So I grew up in Colorado. I'm a native, one of the rare natives out there. And frankly, we didn't have a lot. So I grew up in Evergreen, Colorado, if you're familiar, up in the mountains. Beautiful area. We grew up with limited resources. As a teenager, I grew up with a single father and he raised my brother and I at about $26,000 a year. And I think what's true about that is growing up with limited resources gave me an early view about how difficult it can be when people don't have support systems, when they don't have access to care, when they don't have opportunities. I saw good people, my family, I saw people around my family's friends, other extended family. I saw them struggle and they fell through the cracks. And that made me so mad. So what's true is that I thought, okay, well, you know what? I'm gonna go to college and I'm not gonna fall through the cracks. I'm going to have a different life. Well, I then, when I graduated with my undergrad, I started working at a homeless youth shelter. And once again, I saw people falling through the cracks. I saw systems failing people, I saw barriers to care everywhere. And I was angry again. And I said, you know what? Enough is enough. If I'm gonna be angry about this, I need to do something about it. And those experiences really stayed with me. They gave me a deep appreciation for how much a single opportunity, a mentor, or even just a helping hand could change someone's life. I'll just say one more thing at work at the homeless youth shelter. I cannot recall any youth that was there ever saying, like, I want this for my life. I have no goals, I have no passions. You asked them, what do you want to be? What do you want to do with your life? They all had big ambitions, big goals. They want to be firefighters, teachers, doctors, all the things. And it just really took one person in their life, a teacher, a coach, someone at the homeless youth shelter, to offer them support and to believe in them. So that's a little bit about the origin story that I'd say kind of catapulted me into my passion.

Jason Dana Costa 3:05

Clearly. I mean, I want to do something about it, but you mentioned something interesting along the way, which I think is similar to families of origin. Because sometimes that family is like your dad raising you here, which I would share with you worth the work is inspiration from my father, frankly, and how he raised me as well. But you said something interesting, like mentors there. So what was one of those mentors along the way that made you realize maybe I want to do this, which clearly you have the passion to do this, but even better, perhaps the yes, I can do this. Tell me a story about one of those mentors.

Dani Kimlinger 3:35

Yeah. So I feel very fortunate because I feel like I've had mentors in different areas along like all through my life. That I want to highlight one mentor, and the mentor that I want to highlight is my business partner, actually, Bob Mines. So he did not hire me. I did not know him very well over the first few years that I worked at Mines. His name is Bob Mines. Um, so he's the founder. And we founded the firm in 1981. And I feel like he believed in me from day one. So I remember I was a nervous early 20s something with my quote unquote business suit that I got from a thrift store, my briefcase. And I went in to meet with the CEO at the time. And I used the word awesome about 50 million times in that conversation. And he's a psychologist, so he's very like thoughtful about impact. And he sat there and kind of rolled with me. And then he said, Can I give you some feedback? And of course, when we hear feedback, we're like, Yes, yes, you can give me feedback, but really I don't want your feedback, right? So I got exactly I said absolutely. And he said, I think you are too smart, and I think that your language structure is better than the word awesome. And he said, And I lost track of how many times you use the word awesome. So I want to just give you that feedback because I don't think that it helps you in your credibility, and I want you to succeed. So I was kind of scared of him for years, but I didn't use the word awesome again, that's for sure. But then I started doing some organizational consulting work through our biz psych division, and he and I had some projects together, and I learned so much from him, not just professionally, but personally. He is one of these like well-rounded people, not even just professionals. He has three black belts in taekwondo, two in jiu-jitsu, he runs marathon, like he's just wildly just dynamic. And he's super informed about everything. So I mentioned that I grew up an underserved household. One thing that I learned about was money, actually, like personally and professionally, just learning about investing. And we I saw that with our business and how we did that. And then I started applying personally, and he really challenged a lot of assumptions, but he also kind of he would meet me where I was. So I didn't have to stretch too far too fast, where it was, and I think that was really helpful. And I've learned so much from him in so many facets of life. And I think following your passion, yeah.

Jason Dana Costa 5:56

Oh, I like that. Following your passion, because I was gonna ask a follow-up question there. I mean, certainly he taught you to say awesome less, but you know, he clearly saw some potential in you. And I was kind of curious what kind of those things did he teach you that you maybe didn't see in yourself. I mean, you saw potential, but I'm not sure how you saw it in yourself. And was there an aha moment when he sort of went and said something and went, yeah, that actually is true. And I can leverage that in my leadership and in my future to help other people.

Dani Kimlinger 6:23

You know, I think that one thing that he saw in me and he shared early on was the continuous learning piece that I just and that was that came because we would share like articles background. I was in graduate school for like most of my 20s, you know, and I would learn something or find something interesting, I would share it with people and I'd be excited about it. And he always responded very thoughtfully and he would share information as well. So I think the continuous learning piece he pushed, I think, in me. And I think that, you know, it's funny because I wouldn't say like he builds my confidence by like giving me compliments per se. I think how he has built my confidence is by giving me opportunities. When I started at Mines, I was part of a federal grant and the federal grant got cut. And so I then was kind of splitting my time between mine.

Jason Dana Costa 7:05

It never happens in behavioral health.

Dani Kimlinger 7:07

No, never, never, never. And then there was an opportunity to move into HR because we were expanding so that we could grow our provider network. And so I was able to move into that opportunity. And at the time I was working in my master's degree and was able to build and grow. So, no greater gift, I think, in terms of a confidence builder than being given opportunities and given support and leverage and resources, even in resources in terms of just being able to bounce ideas off of and engage with someone and not be afraid that you will make mistakes because you're going to make so many of them.

Jason Dana Costa 7:39

Oh, wow. So not only did he give you opportunities to learn new things, he gave you the space to make mistakes while doing it, clearly, which I think is also, at least from my experience, one of the best leadership things people can do is not only give them a fine reputation to live up to, but also giving them the opportunity to not necessarily be successful at it and learn from it. It sounds like he gave that to you. Is that fair?

Dani Kimlinger 8:04

I think it's fair. I felt like he invited me to conversations that felt bigger than I was ready for, which was amazing because maybe I couldn't contribute, but I could listen, I could start building those models in my brain. He trusts me with responsibility and he challenged my thinking. I think just like a lesson, this is kind of like a professional life lesson that I think he taught me is that confidence isn't something you wait for. Most of the time, actually, confidence comes after you've done something difficult, not before. So you've done something difficult, you're like, I survived that. How did I do that? What did I do? And I think some of those can be incredible confidence-building steps.

Jason Dana Costa 8:43

Wow. So, you know, one of the questions I was going to ask you, it sounds like this is tied right to that. You spent years clearly studying leadership. I mean, you're modest, I can see, Danny. You're a person who's got a PhD and you've been studying human resources, certified. You've spent years studying leadership, clearly. And that's great to be in the classroom, but what's the school outside of the classroom that, you know, something that taught or you have taught somebody that no classroom potentially may not have shown them, that school of experience?

Dani Kimlinger 9:11

Well, I think what's true is that I still experience moments every day of self-doubt. And I've just learned that those feelings don't mean that I can't do something. I think it means that you're growing. And I think as a leader, I think you really need to stay humble. And it's kind of a common thing you hear, but what do I mean by that? What I mean by that is that you have to understand like where your limitations are. I think we spend way too much time focusing on our strengths. And I think that's important. I think it's good to know what our strengths are. Don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to take that away. That's not important. Looking at your limitations is really important. And why? Because if you know where your limitations are or your vulnerabilities or just your weaknesses, I've got so many of those too. Then you can surround yourself with a team of people that are going to make your team successful. Attention to detail is not my greatest strength as an example. So I have a lot of people around me that have that as a strength, and it's really important. And then being really open to feedback too. But I think what's true is that if you give them that entry point, my colleague Nick, he's a great example of this. We worked together for 13 years and he has great attention to detail. And when I invite him into a meeting, I say, Nick, I need your attention to detail here because I don't want to miss something and I will if you're not here. Then he knows what his role is and he's empowered to have that piece. So I think what's true is as leaders, we're not good at everything. In fact, I would say we're not good at most things. We're good at a small niche of things, whatever those are. Not that we can't grow our leadership skills, our professional development skills. Of course we can. But I think that our people around us, they can make us better leaders. They will make us better leaders if we let them.

Jason Dana Costa 10:47

Oh, yeah. If you're open to it, absolutely. Being key to that and open to, as I like to phrase it, knowing what I know and knowing what I don't know, and then having the courage to ask somebody else to find out, being courageous. I think courageous is a really important thing. And it's really easy sometimes to, because you want to be liked or you want to be well known in an organization. I do this actually in my orientation, given that you have HR experience. We're a small enough organization, one of them that I run, that I can meet every employee that joins. And in that orientation, I say to them, Great, you're a new employee, you've got your new ideas. Please share them with us. The second thing I say to them is, we want you to be courageous. And I explicitly tie the two saying, you're new, you were joining the organization, and it's hard to say something new because you want to be well-liked, you want to just learn, you don't want to rock the boat. But there's great ways to ask questions and be inquisitive and be courageous that believe it or not, improve and speed up your learning, but also connect you to that organization. And I explicitly, I love to explicitly say, we want you to be courageous. Ask those questions, provide that feedback. And I think I'm hearing you saying a similar thing in your organization.

Dani Kimlinger 12:02

I love that. What I love is that you do that at the orientation, which is a nice entry point for an employee because they're hearing the leader of the organization open up their first day, their first week with that invitation. So they don't have to guess. Like what works for Jason? Can I share feedback, et cetera? You're inviting them in a very strong way. So I love that. And you know, someone is a joke. I think that a leader's most important role is two things. One, to provide resources and to remove barriers. And sometimes that barrier is you as a leader. So get out of the way and let them do their darn job. And I think it's important to think about what's a leader, what's a manager, but the conversation happens all the time. But it's a really big responsibility and honor, I think, to be a leader.

Jason Dana Costa 12:47

I agree. So clearly you've grown minds with your partners here over a long period of time. I think I heard you say 20 years, is that right?

Dani Kimlinger 12:54

I joined in 2008. So yeah. So 18 years, yeah.

Jason Dana Costa 12:58

So I'm sure there's been difficult seasons. And have you had a moment where one of those teachable moments we were just talking about earlier kind of came where you had to sort of protect the mission while the organization was changing this operation, or those learned experiences? Because 20 years is a long time to grow.

Dani Kimlinger 13:15

Yeah, absolutely. I think that I have opportunities to recalibrate every day. Um, but what's true is that really fortunate, Jason, we're in the mental health space. Mental health tends to have really high turnover and we have really low turnover. And, you know, I know that people talk about having the best teams, the best management teams, et cetera. But I mean, I think it speaks for itself. As an example, we have an intake team, and actually that's where I joined mine. So I'm not gonna tenure on that team was like six months or something. I mean, I was ready to bounce out of that when I'm about nine months in. And I think that our newest tenured employee has been their almost three years as an official employee, and she started as a contractor. I was just looking at this data. And I bring that up because I think that their manager is just as one example on our management team, just outstanding, so steady, so calm. And that is so important because this last year we had a pretty challenging year. We are uh federal contractors, and so there's been a just a lot of uncertainty, and that's been real challenging.

Jason Dana Costa 14:18

SAMSA it's completely challenged what they're trying to do these days.

Dani Kimlinger 14:22

Yeah, we've had it was a tough road. We had worked with the Doge organization, and then we did a fair amount of work with a reproposal, all of those kinds of things, and then it kind of kept getting pushed back. The challenge was that we had team members who had families who were sitting there waiting, and they knew if we did not retain these federal contracts, they weren't gonna have jobs. And so when we would talk to them, they would share this. And I understand. And I remember having a conversation with one of them, and they said, I love mines, I want to be here, but I have to take care of my family, and this is just so uncertain, and you can't guarantee me a role. And I remember, and that team is outstanding. And let me tell you, it would be rough if we had to replace those folks. But I just like looked, we were on a team's call and I just said, like, I want you to stay here, I want you to be here, but I also want you to take care of your family and you matter. And so I understand if you have to make a different decision. I'm hoping that we hear we're fighting for your role, but I can't guarantee, you're absolutely right. I can't guarantee you that we'll retain this as funding. So we were lucky, it happened, we're good, but it was a really interesting process because it felt so uncertain and I couldn't give a lot of reassurance necessarily, not with a fair amount of it. You just don't know where things are. And so I think those are moments and that are challenging because you know, if there are contract, if we have client organizations that are contracted with us, that's just a different kind of deal than just having somebody doesn't really make sense and you can't really ask questions and those kinds of things, and it's hard. So I think that's an example. We've had a few of those kinds of experiences throughout since I've been at Mines and different roles. Like, how do you keep the morale up? How do you keep them engaged and excited? But also be realistic because they have families to take care of, and this is their livelihood. This is very serious. So it's a balancing act. I think that's one of the toughest things, frankly.

Jason Dana Costa 16:17

Yeah, and I would agree with you. I didn't get a chance to share in advance of this, Danny, but six years I spent in a behavioral health community mental health agency. So I know the challenge, both you're referring to both in COVID as a reality, because I think COVID and the whole Doge Samsung Ridu was a good example of this. You had to somehow still continue to either earn or maintain trust while you had lots of staff who are anxious, burned out, or simply just plain skeptical of what change that is happening out there. And at least in my organization that we were leading at the time, boy, did we lean into overcommunication. I don't know how minds managed it, but we definitely took a position during COVID that closing was not an option. We were simply not going to do this. It's sort of where behavioral health sort of bloomed and exploded in many respects for its rise in consciousness to our whole culture, which in some respects the doge is the backlash of that, but still keeping that sort of level of awareness there. But we really had to lean into over-communication and in multiple formats. So it couldn't be just great, we sent a group email, 275 people, good luck, read it. No, we had to create the standing town halls, we had to send the email, we had to give space for those one-to-one meetings because everybody's carrying that invisible backpack. And I don't know, Danny, if it's true in mind, but in my experience, a good portion of your behavioral health employment is actually people who have direct experience with behavioral health, either themselves personally, or a family member. So they are, let's say, seriously invested. And you they have sometimes not as not only the anxiety they have in the space during these challenging moments, but they're also trying to manage the anxiety of make it up the caseload is 30 people for that case manager or 300 if they're the psychiatrist. So you had to see both sides of that in both instances. And in many respects, I think anyway, the impact of COVID and what's happened in the recent time and how our federal government's managing some of these assets, it may seem like a long time over six, seven years now, but that's actually a fairly tight window of time for organizations and their employees.

Dani Kimlinger 18:37

Absolutely. And I think that the strategically too, the behavior health industry just looks so much different today than when I started. I think the needs of employees, families, employers have evolved dramatically. I mean, at Mines, we've had to modernize our technology, we've had to think through like our services, we've had to expand our partnerships, we've had to adapt. And by the way, we aren't PE or VC that. So, and that's by choice. And I think what's true is anytime you ask people to change, there's certainty. My executive coach always says, and I love this quote, says, People love change, but they don't love to be changed. And it just sticks with me because I think about it and I think I'm not even for myself, because I think I'm like a change embracer, but I'm like, actually, only if I get a fair amount of say in the change. And the challenge has never been deciding whether to change. The challenge really is making sure that we don't lose what makes us special, what makes us minds while we evolve. So I think if we keep the mission as our guidepost, then I think, and if change helps us serve people better, then I think that it's worth pursuing. But it's yeah, change is not easy, that's for sure. And we've had a lot of opportunities, thankfully, as you said.

Jason Dana Costa 19:51

We've read a lot about some comments that you've made that healthcare has had plenty of innovation, that the bigger challenge is integration. And I just heard you say a moment ago about partnerships. So I'd love to hear more from you. What would be meaningful integration where you see some of these things across the spectrum of coordination for care? Where do you see some of those challenges and hopefully solutions?

Dani Kimlinger 20:14

Yeah, so I think that in terms of the question that we always have to ask ourselves as an organization is do we want to build or buy? Right. I think that we have that opportunity to ask a lot. And we do both. So, as an example, on the AI front, we actually just launched our AI client navigator this week. Their name is Mello, as an example, and we've had a digital intake because currently I'll step back. Currently, all of our services are can be accessed either via phone or digital intake. And that's been the case for many years. So we upgraded our digital intake to FUBAS AI enhancement. Well, I think what it does is it allows a more curated experience for our clients. So we chose to build this with a partner. So there you go. See, so there's a partnership involved, but then also we built it along with a partner. Now, when did we decide, as an example, that it's better for us to partner on a service side? Our peer support program would be a really good example. So we think peer support is really important. We believe that it's holistically important. Great, that there's so much peer support in the like recovery community, et cetera. But what about all the other areas? So we have, as an example, a person-led 24-7 anonymous peer support program. And so it we partnered with an organization to make that a reality for us. And so it asks two questions. What do you want to be called? What's your struggle? And then you get put into a group. The most common time, as we understand it, that service is used, is between 1 and 3 a.m. We are not going to learn how to be peer support people. We are not going to learn how to put all of our staff through peer support credentialing. We found a best in class partner. That would be an example of kind of a decision making process on that. We view ourselves as really exceptional. In psychology. So behavioral health, organizational psychology. We're exceptional there. But our services have to include more than that. They have to include financial, legal, wellness, parenting coach, all those things. But guess what? We may not be the best fit for the delivery of those services. So then we find who we think in the industry is and we see if they'll partner with us. So and I think that makes a better program, frankly.

Jason Dana Costa 22:24

So that's interesting. If I heard correctly, this is Jason paraphrasing what you said, you've created a 988, but instead it's peer support. So you're getting like the right peer support on a call-in and then a group. Did I hear that correctly?

Dani Kimlinger 22:38

Yeah, so different than 988, the peer support's for crisis, but they can't call us. Arc 1-800 number, anyone can call and we will support and help them 24-7. Even if they're not a contracted client, we'll help them get to where they need to go. But yeah, the peer support program is for non-emergent needs, and it can be anything. It can be I am stressed out of work and I just need to talk to someone. So it's led by a facilitator. And I'll share the organization we partner with is supportive and they're great. And so as an example, they have a person facilitating, and then the group is relevant to their needs. And I've heard great feedback about that service. I mean, I've heard they get great resources to clients, and it's neat because sometimes it's just a little bit more comfortable for people to be to not identify.

Jason Dana Costa 23:24

So oh yeah, no, I can see it. And I certainly 100% agree. So I say that 988, of course, is for serious emergencies. I connected it just from the 24-7 availability. So the context you're saying, which is really fantastic. And is AI integrating with that particular program or is the AI thing you mentioned earlier separate from it?

Dani Kimlinger 23:44

Great question. So to tie that all together, Mellow is going to get to know what our clients' needs are through the intake process. So we currently have people or our team doing it. We will still have team members doing it, but they can also choose, instead of one of our team members doing their intake, to have Mellow. And so they can either talk or they can just fill out the digital intake on their phone or computer. But then Mellow is looking for opportunities to connect them with services. So that's then as well as ongoingly. So right now, like prior to Mellow, prior to this rollout, our digital intake looked more like a shopping cart model. So you could say, I would like some counseling, and then I would like to also add maybe I want to talk to a financial coach. And then there you go. But now Mellow can say, Oh, what are you looking for counseling for? And you can say marriage stress or something. And then they can say, Oh, okay. And then we ask a lot of questions around like anxiety, depression, substance use, so on and so forth in the intake. And they can make recommendations to help them. So maybe that's not the service they're asking for, but they can say, Are you a care of this service and so on and so forth? So it's a more curated and more individualized experience for them.

Jason Dana Costa 24:50

Wow, that's kind of amazing. It out of curiosity, does that help them also with sort of the not the financial component, like they need help with how to manage their finances, but the disconnect I often found in behavioral health was sort of during the intake process, sort of the connecting to actual insurance that would had to cover your costs, but also was just so difficult for some of these people, particularly struggling with behavioral health, filling out paperwork is a problem. Does this AI help in that regard too? Do you have to transfer them to say a benefit specialist?

Dani Kimlinger 25:21

Great question. So on the EAP side, we are like we cover a set number of sessions per life situation. So they could use, let's say an organization has six sessions. They could use six sessions for job stress, they could use six sessions for some other kind of life change. But let's say that they need longer-term care. We do ask all of our providers to identify different networks that they're in. And so that way they can transition care should they need a longer-term need. So let's say that they're seeing a therapist in the EAP for an eating disorder and it was going to require more care than that, then they would be able to continue that service. Of course, we strongly recommend clients check that with the therapist to make sure they're still in the networks and all of that because there's a lot of dynamicness.

Jason Dana Costa 26:06

Are you credentialed?

Dani Kimlinger 26:08

That's right, yeah. Are you still in this network? So, but we do encourage and we say, as we see it, they are showing in this network, but we encourage you to make sure that's still true.

Jason Dana Costa 26:17

So that's interesting. So one of the challenges I saw in behavioral health, too, and I think this is a great question to ask as well. You can f future cats it if it's something that you're thinking about now or when you decide about this product. But sometimes there are these things that sound really good versus something that you absolutely know will create a lasting impact. So behavioral health can be really hard to make some decisions around that. What has been your criteria in deciding what's sort of worth investing in versus uh something that sounds a little bit more like fluff, pardon the phrase?

Dani Kimlinger 26:48

Evidence-based care is really important when it comes to our behavioral health services. I think in terms of other services that we offer, as an example, like our wellness coaching, we partner with the best in class organization that these board-certified wellness coaches as an example. So, and they're accredited and all of those kinds of things. So I think looking at, like we know our space and how we're thinking about moving forward, what does the outcome data look like as well? Really important for programs. And that's all of our programs too. So, not just the EAP, but also our management health care, so on and so forth. And frankly, even on the PPO side, because we look at how quickly do therapists get people in, what is the effectiveness of their care, so on and so forth, satisfaction, because they can be really attractive therapists, maybe. But if they don't have good connection skills, that's why I'm saying maybe, because maybe they wouldn't connect and we wouldn't even know that. I think that looking at what your standards of care are and like what is your mission and how are you going towards that mission? And then maybe strategically as well, how do you build those partnerships then?

Jason Dana Costa 27:53

Well, Danny, it's been great to have you. I'm gonna ask you one last question on the way up. Tell us what Minds thinks is its future right now. What do you see is the hard work you're gonna put in?

Dani Kimlinger 28:03

Oh my goodness. So we are continuing to expand a variety of our services right now. So we've expanded internationally the last few years. That has been really fun. That's on the employee assistance program side. We're continuing to build out our managed beer of our health care services. Can't share too much, it's not totally official, but we just got recommended for a full accreditation. Yesterday we had our big audit. So we're very excited about that. That's gonna help us a lot with our managed verbal health care.

Jason Dana Costa 28:29

Oh, wow. Join Commissioner Carf.

Dani Kimlinger 28:32

Iraq.

Jason Dana Costa 28:33

Oh, all right. Well, neither. There's so many.

Dani Kimlinger 28:37

Yeah, there are. Well, so we'd be recommended, but it has to be approved and all of that. But we're hoping so. But that's that's exciting for us. And then we have an emotional ergonomics program that we've been partnering with some, you know, organizations on that looks at safety because a lot of times when we think about like work comp and safety in the workplace, we think about the physical quote side. So posture, et cetera. So this is where we're looking at the behavioral health side of that. We're actually getting ready to do a launch internationally with a partner on that, and also starting with some of our current clients as well. And then so we're really excited to see where that goes. It's a different market for us, but it's an applicable service and something we've done for a very long time, just a different application.

Jason Dana Costa 29:17

Wow. Well, I look forward to following you. Danny, thank you for uh joining us on the show. This has been Danny Kimlinger, who is the CEO and partner of Mines and Associates out of Colorado. Again, Danny, thank you for joining us here on Worth the Work.

Dani Kimlinger 29:30

Thank you. Such a pleasure.